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Narrator 0:02
welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS, the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens. We'll hear stories from technology directors and other special guests from the Independent School community and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics. And now please welcome your host, Christina Lewellen.

Christina Lewellen 0:25
Hello everyone and welcome back. This is talking technology with ATLIS. I'm Christina Llewellyn, the executive director of ATLIS

Bill Stites 0:33
and I am Bill Stites, the Director of Technology at Montclair Kimberley Academy,

Christina Lewellen 0:37
Bill, it's just you and me today, we're missing Hiram.

Bill Stites 0:41
I know I'm somewhat heartbroken by that fact. I'd love spending time with you. I'm gonna love spending time with our guests. But it hurts a little, you know, so I'm going to try to get through it.

Christina Lewellen 0:49
You know, he's a busy guy like he is in high demand. And it's always a little bit of a miracle when we try to pull together the scheduling, indeed, so that we can all be in one place at one time to have a conversation. It's always Hiram. Like, there's one in every crowd and it's Hiram. That dude's got a busy calendar.

Bill Stites 1:08
No, 100% agree. It's all let's blame everything on Hiram when he's not here. I'm all for that.

Christina Lewellen 1:12
I also think that we need to assign him some stuff, right? Like, if you miss a meeting, don't you end up with like, you get voluntold a few things. 100%. Before the end of this, what we should do is in the show notes for this podcast, we should come up with at least a few deliverables that go to hire him so that when he listens to this episode, he's gonna get us assignments. As we keep that in the back of our minds, let's turn to our guest today. I'm really excited about having this guest. Because I just think that there's a unique mind that we get to explore today. And that is of Mr. Mike Cobb, Mike. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Hello, it's

Mike Cobb 1:51
good to see both of you and excited to be here today and talk technology talk learning with both of you.

Christina Lewellen 1:57
Yeah, so tell us first of all, for our listeners, where are you? For me? I'm sitting here a few minutes after 10am on the east coast. So also, when are you? What timezone Are you in?

Mike Cobb 2:09
Yes, I am 5pm and Saudi Arabia and the Bucha region, that is the far northwest corner of Saudi Arabia near the Gulf of aucuba, close to Jordan, here as part of the neon project, and they have been here for almost a year and a half now. So

Christina Lewellen 2:26
we're gonna get into a little bit of your origin story, because you have a long history in independent schools. But I think a lot of folks may not understand what Neelam is. So can you tell us a little bit about why you're in the Middle East and why you are at this place called neon? What is it?

Mike Cobb 2:45
Yeah, it's a great story. naomh is the most futuristic project probably ever endeavored. It's looking at how we not only live within our spaces, but how we live together, it is comprised of really four main projects, the line that many people have heard about 100 mile linear city, that will allow us to reimagine how we live, where we live, and then what it looks like to be in a sustainable place. We also have Georgiana, the mountain city that is going to be the host of the 2030 Asian Olympic Games, we also have cent dollar, which is the island city, and then we have octagon the largest ports in the world was totally complete. So these are just for the projects that are the bigger projects that are launched right now there are many more involved, I'm in the home, because I have always dreamed about what the future of education should look like, always hoped that we could really trying to think about what it will be not trying to think about what it should be right now. I feel like every time I talk about the future of learning with people, we still get stuck into what we're doing right now rather than what it will be in the future. And so this project was the opportunity to do just that. I mean, we are iterating very rapidly here. We already have three campuses that we are running, we have three more that we're going to be opening next school year, and down the road, we'll have 4000 schools, and then the ecosystem. So it's a big project that is, to me the most audacious dream I've ever seen. And I like to be an audacious dreamer. So I couldn't resist.

Christina Lewellen 4:11
I mean, you certainly are, and we'll get into some of that. But tell me a little bit about your living. Tell us more about the community part of it. Because you're there. And I think that you're there with your wife. That's right. And you guys have like a small footprint living quarters. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I find that really fascinating. Yeah,

Mike Cobb 4:31
you know, one of the favorite things for me about being part of this whole project is that it is a job that we're doing to create something new but we're also we're we're living it as we go about it. There are about 5000 full time employees here in the community one where I live, we have about another 60,000 employees that are part of the construction teams that are all over this region working so I mean, we have a porch to 70,000 people living here now so I can tell you that the home is real when people ask I'm here every day. You can just Sure

Christina Lewellen 5:00
is right. It's not living in a computer. It's not artificial intelligence.

Mike Cobb 5:04
Yes, yeah, it's true. I'm here. This is real. And you know, one of the things that is cool is that we have all come here because of the passion for this project. And we live in beautiful homes, but they're small homes. I'm from Texas, y'all might know that we're proud of things being bigger in Texas. Well, my house is about the size of my kitchen in Texas, it's small, has one living area has a kitchen has a bedroom and a bathroom. And the thing I love most about that, though, is that everyone in the home has that same footprint, even our CEO, to everyone in between has the same house. And it's beautiful to me that we we don't have any of those things that exist in most other societies that you know, you know, where you are, who you are based on what the size of your house is, or things like that. But that doesn't exist here at NAMM. And then you know, I also say that it is a bit of a minimalist lifestyle and the sense of we are in the middle of nowhere, we have everything we need, but not everything we want. And that's something that I wanted to try and my life because I felt like I was probably becoming more materialistic than I wanted to be in my life. And I thought this is an opportunity for me to actually learn that lesson for myself. And so I love what Nam has provided for me in my career, but also for me personally,

Christina Lewellen 6:13
that's really fascinating. So it takes, I think, a certain kind of personality to be brave and experimental. But I think this is sort of wired in you, right, like so let's now take a few steps back, tell us about your more traditional, Independent School path. And then I think my follow up is going to be about how you brought innovation into those spaces. But tell everybody a little bit about the mike Cobb origin story.

Mike Cobb 6:40
You know, my story is actually very traditional in some ways, but I think you mentioned it off. And we've talked before that none of our paths are a straight line. I love the fact that we sometimes cheat people when we tell our story, because we want to do it fast. But it's all over I served 10 years and the Navy, I didn't know if I wanted to be a teacher those first probably five years. So I was in the classroom, I was looking at the one ads every day thinking surely there's got to be something different than this because it wasn't easy, always. But I was given the opportunity to work at two great schools before now. And that's really my career for 34 years, almost, I have worked primarily at three schools. So I work at the Oak Ridge School in Arlington, Texas. And I was blessed to have such an amazing team with a vision for what we were trying to do. I had amazing colleagues like Jason Kern, who is an ATLIS board member, and we were able to really not only do good work, but to grow up as school leaders and to grow up as thought leaders. And I'm very proud of that time together. We did a lot of good stuff at Oak Ridge. And then I decided to move to all saints in 2016. And Tyler, Texas, just east of Dallas. There I stayed for seven years. And we did a lot of innovative programs there. And it was a school that when I came in was a very traditional Episcopal School and a small suburban town. But they were thinking about what the future could look like. And they gave me enough rope to do some really great things with our team. And we created some amazing innovative spaces and several ideas about how you not only use space, but how you then can have more impact through that powerful uses.

Christina Lewellen 8:17
What did you teach? Where did you start in that classroom that you your reticence teaching what was that?

Mike Cobb 8:24
The funny story is that I did come into independent schools very reluctantly, I just finished my master's in history at University of North Texas. And I was planning to go through my Ph. D track I was working on that had already started my courses. And it wasn't always easy. I had a neighbor who her daughter went to the Oak Ridge school, every day we would talk and as I would come home some days and not really sure about what I was still doing. She's like you need to go interview at that school. They would be great for you and you would love it. And so finally one day I reluctantly gave him and I still remember that when I was interviewed by Mr. Broadus who's one of my mentors in life. He gave me the contract and I any 25 year old that has confidence they shouldn't have says I said, Well, Mr. Ross, I want to be here for two years. I'm gonna just do this and go back and get my PhD. 20 years later, we retired the same year together, or we left Oakridge the same year together. But no, I taught government and history those were my two passions. I did everything in between. I joke often that Mr. Broadus, he is my greatest mentor, but he was not easy on me. He was the Mr. Miyagi. He had me doing everything that you can imagine in a school most of the time, I had no idea why I was doing it. But I learned so much about school that I feel like as I am a head of school that I can talk to most corners of the school. I may not know everything, but I oh yeah, I've run some programs. Oh, yeah, I've done the excellent publication. Oh, yeah. I've been in charge of admissions. So I'm grateful for that experience. You

Bill Stites 9:48
know, it's funny, I laugh because I remember when I started, I told them, you've got me for the year and then I'm gonna be looking elsewhere. And 30 years later, I'm still here. So I laugh about that. That's Great,

Christina Lewellen 10:00
you guys. I mean, I just have to jump in as a woman on this conversation. That is a very guy thing, I think. I don't think any woman's like, let me just wait on the law here, y'all. So just watch a privilege and all that

Bill Stites 10:16
different time, privilege or just unknowing, obnoxious, 20 something year old guy, I'm sure that played a lot into it. Yes, exactly. Again. So Mike, what are the things you know, looking at all you've done, and I'm just very intrigued by just the breadth of things that you've been able to do over the course of your career. But you talked about those innovative spaces. And when, you know, looking back at all that you've done, and all the different ways in which you've impacted space, at the different places you've been at? I'm really curious because we hear MK are going through a process now we're we're looking at re envisioning some of our spaces at our Upper School in particular. And I'm curious as to what what is your approach been given all the different things that you've done? What is your approach been to tackling questions about space, how they fit how they meet program in the schools in which you've worked? And and what the work that you're doing right now, because I can imagine, you know, how we're planning spaces, how we're thinking about spaces in what you're doing right now is really up there on top of what you're doing on a daily basis. Yeah, it's

Mike Cobb 11:23
exciting. Well, I have to tell a quick story to lean into why I got so passionate about spaces. It happened in around 2007, I was the middle school head at Oak Ridge. And I was really doing a lot of work with our teachers thinking about how active learning looks. And looking at how we use technology in the classroom. This goes back to the early days of QR codes. So I'll let everybody remember that we're using it more now than ever, but we were so excited to use QR codes in the classroom, right. And so I had this group of students that ran down to my office, and they were so excited. I mean, it was loud coming down the hall. And they were encouraging me to come to their classroom and see what was going on. As I got to the classroom. We had the students there on the floor, in between the rows of desks, with their iPads and QR codes doing this work, and they were so ecstatic about it. But all I could see was that we had created this space that was literally trapping the kids, and preventing them from really being fully engaged as they should have been in that moment. And I literally had an epiphany that day, like, I am going to change this, like we're gonna re imagine our spaces. And it was around the same time that the third teacher came out that was a wonderful book that was, again, the right read at the right time for me. And I have now centered so much my thought around Malaguzzi these ideas about the three teachers about how we have to make sure that, yes, we bring in the best adult that we can for the learning process to be a guide, we also have to have the best co learners. But that third teacher is essential. And so we started doing it at Oak Ridge. And we did some several cool spaces there with a Learning Commons, a learning garden and some other things. But when I got to all saints, it was a gift for me that I just began to walk around every space on the weekends. And I would just start giving, I give ratings to each of the spaces. So I'd go from zero to you might be doing harm to children, this space to 10 band, this is the most effective third teacher I could ever interview or higher. And what we found is that we had area all over campus that we could do better with. And so it gave us the palette for us to say, Well, let's start and so we just picked up what are those low hanging fruit for us where we could go into a space that is not being utilized? Well, we have a need for something else. How can we make that better. So that's how we began with the collaboratory, the Center for Innovation, the outdoor learning center. So many of the spaces were really the result of us looking at what those spaces weren't doing, rather than what we necessarily, you know, had on a list of things to do, right. So to me that third teacher, though, is primary and every school, I always have challenged people. If you think you don't have wasted space, go about it this way, walk around and really give a ready to each one of your spaces and think about it. And then also on most of our campuses, we have so many areas that are dedicated to adults. I know Christina knows his story. But at all saints, one of the first things we did is we got rid of our boardroom when I walked around and I looked at our boardroom beautiful old traditional boardroom with cherry wood all around it. It was being used maybe once a month for a board meeting, and then a couple of times for other administrative meetings. And I said, Well, this does not have impact for students, we should think more about this and ended up becoming our fab lab, one of our coolest spaces on campus and I was always so proud of it from the boardroom to the fabrication lab, and it had such an impact for our learning

Christina Lewellen 14:39
is really incredible. You know, the discussion around the third teacher. Interestingly, our beloved now retired professional development director Susan Davis also loves that concept. Yes. And she took it a step further in a blog and she's been talking about this toward the end of her career and she got more reflective as she looked at her trajectory as a whole her complete career journey, she actually kind of likes the idea that there's now a fourth teacher, and that the fourth teacher is technology. Yes. And that technology plays now just as vital role as what you're talking about with the space. What's your thought on that? Or what's your reaction to that concept?

Mike Cobb 15:22
Well, first of all, I would never argue against Susan Davis ever. I know better than that. So never Oh, my

Christina Lewellen 15:27
gosh. She was the gift that I received walking into this role, and we miss her every day. She's amazing. She is well earned this retirement. But there were a couple 100 tears,

Mike Cobb 15:42
no doubt. I mean, much of my thoughts were shaped from conversations with Susan and other thought leaders that I have in my life. So I absolutely think what she has said and her thought process there makes sense for us. I mean, there were so many elements to what we do in a classroom. You I think it's all coming down to what are those most impactful areas for us. And again, depending on your school, the pay on your vision, depending on your goal, those could all be in a different order even right, but I definitely think technology plays an important role. I love the quote that though technology should be essential for learning, but it should be invisible to those that walk in. I still love that concept, though, that even when we were designing the collaboratory and things, they were very high tech areas. But if you walked in and you saw a forest, you didn't see the technology, but man, it was very high tech. And so I think technology should be that very invisible teacher in the classroom.

Bill Stites 16:33
Yeah, Chris Lehrman out of Philadelphia, he would say that it should be Beko. It should be like air. And that was something that when I started going down to Science Leadership Academy for their workshops, that was the one thing that stuck with me, and it's something I've used time and time again, I think it's a great concept. Powerful. Yes. Yeah.

Christina Lewellen 16:50
So I think that leads us really well into kind of the meat of why I wanted to invite you on to the podcast is, if I could invite you to step up on the soapbox for a minute, can you share your thoughts about the future of learning? Can you just dump some of that mic cop brain out for all of us to kind of percolate on because I think that you are moving at a million miles an hour. And I think you really do think of education and teaching and learning differently. So the soapbox and the mic, are yours, my friend, please go.

Mike Cobb 17:25
Thank you. Thank you. I've been waiting for this moment, my whole life. So here we go. You know, what's really interesting to me is that I am in such a unique position now working here at NEON that we are thinking so far ahead. And we honestly are thinking, and so many really interesting pathways that I never thought I'd be as far along with this thought process as I am right now. And before I lean into what I think the future of learning looks like I would say what I have also learned being here, though, is that even in this very futuristic place where I live, and we're doing things with incredible things with AI and education, were doing great things with biometric feedback, VR AR data analysis, we're doing all these things. And the one thing that I have learned that I didn't think I would learn is that there are still so many things about relationships and things that how you do things about how you structure you know, I'm a big agile person, I love the idea of how we go through things with a non watershed method. All those things are so important. So we can layer technology on, we can layer these new advances on but if we don't do it in a way that's still thoughtful, that is still keeping our goals in mind, then I worry that all this technology won't transform education, because be honest, that we have had a lot of technology innovations that have come in the last 100 years. And our learning has not changed as much as technology, right? I mean, we went from a chalkboard to a whiteboard to now a touchable display. All right. That's just substitution. We haven't changed and reimagine so much what we're doing. But we have the opportunity to do that now through AI and how we can use that within not only the learning, but with the teaching as well. It's one of things I'm very passionate about, looking at how we can help teachers analyze data more rapidly. And I'm not talking about just the feedback loop. But like we're using things where we're doing biometric feedback, where we can see students attention in class, we can look at things they're even as down as far as their temperature and heart rates, right. So what happens if though a teacher can know that, you know, Mike was really excited for several points of the day, but there were times in the day when you were talking about this or that that mic was not engaged at all based on the biometric feedback. You can take a teacher who may not have those natural instincts to understand engagement as well. They haven't been around as long or they don't know and you can have aI help them understand that more. So that's just like one example where if we do it, right, we could do something really powerful. Obviously with things like VR and AR they can be transformative technologies for us, not only in how allows students to go different places to see different things, but also to be social with people they can't be social with. that same way. So those are some of the things that I'm really excited about. And that I believe that if we keep looking down the road, not just down at our feet now but down the road, like what will this really look like? What are those skills and the competencies that students need in the future, then we will do better with our integration of technology and how we do future forward learning.

Bill Stites 20:18
Mike, I want to follow up on something that you said, because first of all, I think you're in a really unique position, because I can't tell you how many times I've gotten together with colleagues and we said, you know, if we were starting a school, what would we do? How would we do it? And you're in that spot. I mean, it's an envious position to be in because you can really start thinking about these ways in which you really want to affect positive change in the way in which we're running schools and doing things. One of the points that you mentioned that I'd like you to kind of expand on a little bit because I don't think necessarily maybe our audience knows about agile or working in that framework with a scrum framework you mentioned you know, a non waterfall type environment, I the good fortune of about a year ago, through Teachers College, they brought their heads eight heads institute that they were running, they brought it to MK visit a connection we have with the Institute, all these heads were there, and we were able to work with a guy by the name of Mike pound Dino, who teaches at Villanova works at Bristol Myers Squibb. He does a lot of stuff around agile, and we got into agile, and it was something I'd heard about through like software design and the way in which you know, you move through things and iterate through things. But it was never something that we talked about within the context of schools. And what I learned in that thing we spent the day building with Legos. But we spent the day really learning about it, and trying to take those concepts and apply them to what we need to do to school to be more iterative, to be able to kind of try different things and work through different problems and see where you are and have those touchbacks. Can you explain to everyone how you see agile, impacting the way in which we look at what we do in schools, and the way in which we can use that to envision and enact the changes that you're doing right now, on a day to day basis.

Mike Cobb 22:07
I am passionate about the idea of agile, I use the method called Scrum, which was developed by Jeff Sutherland. It's just one variety. There are many of this idea of being agile and how to have an Agile process. It started interesting enough with me when I was at all saints in my first year. And we had all of these ideas, all these things that were going on. And we had actually started several programs, we were quite ambitious. And as I was one day, looking through some books, I got the book and I began to read it. And as I began to read it, I had just this clarity that it might pass the projects that I had led and had been a part of that were successful, we had inadvertently been using some Agile processes, we had decided how we would chunk it, how we would divide time and go through. And then that the ones that had not been successful, we weren't doing a watershed method, we had decided to do it very old school. And so it was like this moment for me like, wow, if we're going to continue at the pace we're going at now we have to think differently. So the first thing I did was I bought a copy of Scrum for every member of our administrative team and for our teachers. And I told our administrative team, I said, You need to read this because this is how we're going to be approaching work in the future. And I told our teachers, I just want you to think about it. Now. Don't worry, this is how our kids will lead. But it led us down a three year process where we began to incorporate Scrum and Agile into every element of our school.

Christina Lewellen 23:30
I mean, that's pretty foreign for teachers. Yes. Did you have a revolt on your hands? They thought you're crazy.

Mike Cobb 23:38
That's why I said I gave it to him in December as a Christmas gift. And I said I just want you to read this.

Christina Lewellen 23:43
That is not a good Christmas gift, dude.

Unknown Speaker 23:47
It's the gift of agility.

Christina Lewellen 23:51
I'm sure they were scratching their heads a little bit.

Mike Cobb 23:54
Exactly. But the idea is, though, that once they read it and there was no expectation for the teachers there was for the administrative team. But then what they saw is they saw acciara administrative team being more effective. And I had many comments from the teachers about I feel like the work we're doing is more meaningful. And now I feel like things are going forward in a more rapid pace. And so it was so powerful, but then we stretched it to go into our classrooms. And so all of our teachers ended up getting scrum training. We had numerous Scrum Masters across the campus, and we had students that were Scrum Masters. And I really do believe, as you all know, one of our passions at all saints was a three learning it's still my passion, but it's centered around the idea of authentic learning agency and then these agile frameworks. I think a lot of people understand authentic learning, they understand agency and how that really can impact learning, but they sometimes miss on the agile and I say that really the Agile is the fuel for the first to that when students are doing authentic work if they don't know how to be good project managers. They don't know how to lead through to completion to actually delivery they get frustrated, and they don't want to do it anymore. That was fun. But I don't want to do it anymore. Then also when you give agency if they don't have a way to actually use an empowerment, then to actually, again, get people around it to help them get to the fruition of their idea, then they get really frustrated. So Agile to me is the landing strip for authentic and agency.

Christina Lewellen 25:19
I love that because I think that in today's workplace, there's so much project management, expertise and skills. And that's where you see, especially sometimes the less seasoned professionals struggling, they're great at their vertical, they're wonderful at their subject matter expertise. But goodness, can they figure out how to prioritize? That's right, can they figure out how to get down the path of what is always going to be more work than can get done? Absolutely, yes. So it's really interesting how you snuck in that nutrition. Basically, you put vegetables in a muffin, there you go. By having students getting good at that, yes.

Bill Stites 26:02
What I think is interesting, there is also the time that you have to do it, you've got to set time where you have to complete something, and you have to come together and you have to be able to share, and then you know that you're going to have that opportunity to go back and rework what it was that you've done. So it's almost getting past this point, we talk a lot about how do we teach people to be better about accepting of failure. And I don't think it's necessarily failure. But it's the idea that it's not going to be perfect, but we have to come together, we have to talk about it, we have to share on it, we have to discuss it, and then we can look at it and then we can iterate and move beyond and then improve upon it as you go through. And I think it's yes, for me, it was that process approach that I think was very interesting, because I know I even struggle with this myself now where it's like, I'm not willing to give up something because I don't think it is as good as it could be. But it often delays, even getting anything out. And I think that's one of the really big things about that process that I think is really good to kind of embrace and take in.

Mike Cobb 27:07
I love that. A couple of things that I have really always emphasize with our team, as we're leading, especially using Agile is that you can't get caught up on perfect. First of all, I love the Pareto rule that talks about that if you can do a job or defer a job to 80%, and you can take on something else, then you should do that. And it's a really hard one for us, especially as school leaders to give up. And of course, you have to pick and choose which things will get dropped in 80%. But, you know, at all saints, for example, we ended up we could have done maybe five projects at 100%. But we end up doing 31 construction projects in my time there. And I think most of them were probably higher than 80%. But if that was okay, which still if it was 80%, we did 31 projects, right. And so I think that that's so important to think about that we have to in this world that we live in now, I talk a lot about VUCA, you know, the volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous problems that we have. Now, you can't aim for perfection with the uncertainty we have today, because you won't reach it likely. And if you do, I believe it's usually on accident. So I know I'm a bit of a gunslinger in that way, though, that I say we only have so much time with the children that are under our care. I don't want to wait and have a child miss out on 1/10 112 to 12, or whatever of their education because we need to go through two more committees to make sure that we get this to perfection. If we get it to 80% we know we can have impact, then we should go we should have a bias to action. I

Christina Lewellen 28:34
love that. I want to go back to a leadership lesson that I feel like I learned fairly young in my career. And that is that sometimes you need to surround yourself with people who are different than you are. And Mike, you and I have gotten to know each other through a networking event that you put together with some thought leaders in the independent school space. So I know a bit about you. And you just said you run fast and you make sure that you're getting things out the door and you have kind of that action oriented personality. I feel like I'm kind of like that too. But what I've learned is that it's important to have people around us that sometimes slow down and make sure they attend to the details. And so you mentioned Jason Kern, yes, he is that guy, right? Yes. Because you work together. He was on your leadership team and all saints. He will probably hate us for talking about him on this pod. But he's now on ATLISes board of directors. He is also our finance committee chair. And he's that guy, he now works with mission and data. And he is like an operations savant. Like he makes sure he's attending to the details. And so he seems like the kind of person that you would want on your team, especially given how you are and I have some of those on my team. Yes, especially given how I am. So tell me a little bit about that. And is that something that you've always done? Is it something that you learn to do? Do over time. How do you pick the people you surround yourself with?

Mike Cobb 30:03
I totally believe it's so important to think about what your team brings. I've done everything from the Enneagram to Strength Finders to everything in between with my teams over the years to really be deeply consider it to what we all bring to the table. Jason though, is, of course, an incredible part of my journey. We worked for 20 years together at Oak Ridge, and then seven years together at all saints. Honestly, we agree on a lot of things, but we disagree on as many as we agree on though, because he is so thoughtful. I'm gonna say same. Yeah, yes. And that was what was really so magic for us is that we had such a respect for each other. I truly respect that. He is one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. And he is very, very methodical about the way he goes about thinking through things. I could give 1000 examples of that when I'm ready to go and just say, Okay, I got it. This is what we want to do. He's like, let me ask a few clarifying questions. Jason, come on, come on, come on. And then here we go. And then I'm like, Oh, that was that was good. Oh,

Christina Lewellen 31:04
I know that I feel that so hard. Yes,

Mike Cobb 31:06
right. But it is so important to have people around because what that did for me as a leader, is it gave me the comfort that I didn't have to worry, I could be my true self. Because I knew that I had Jason, that was there to be that best side of, hey, let's think about it one more way. Let's slow down. Let's go through a process. So I can be myself. So that's a gift. And I I had the great fortune to have several people that played different roles, the teams that I was on all saints at Oak Ridge, and here at naomh that played those roles for us. So I think it's important, don't get in your echo chamber. It's nice to have people that think just the way you do. But you'll miss steps if you live there. And how do you feel about

Christina Lewellen 31:44
technology? Let's bring it back to that for a second, because tech teams at independent schools come in a lot of shapes and sizes. So when you are ahead in any kind of leadership position, how do you think about tech? Is it everywhere? And it's decentralized? Is it important to have a person or a team really focused on making it as efficient and invisible? as possible? What are your philosophies when it comes to a tech team at an independent school?

Mike Cobb 32:14
Now, I will say that, obviously it's changed over time what I've thought about it, I've been in education for 34 years. So I still remember when I had the first computer in my classroom that I had to buy myself and I had to allow the school to lease it from me for $1 a year. Wait, do

Christina Lewellen 32:32
you remember what that computer was?

Mike Cobb 32:33
It was a 3d six knife. Yeah. So remember it very well, that floppy disk. And I remember having someone tell me at that time, there's never going to be a time where you need a computer in the classroom. So I come from that point to where we have so much integration. And we have not one to one, I mean one to one when we started that at Oakridge seems so futuristic, now we have three four to one, right? So for me, technology, though, plays such an important part of our schools, because it is life. My hope, though, is that we don't use technology as a lingo around the school. Because if we're trying to integrate technology, then we forget what we're really trying to do is we're trying to make sure our kids are life ready, right? So whatever those technologies are, should be what they're using live. I often say that in the past, we've always had students try to we want them to learn something, then we want them to love it, then we want them to live it. And I say no, no, let's go backwards. Let's have them see what they live. Let's see what they love. And then let's learn deeper into that. That's how authentic learning can actually happen. Interesting. Jason helped shape my thought on this a lot. We moved away from having technology even in our title. Jason's title was he was the assistant head of school for innovation and modern learning. And we like that, that to me, when you talk about modern learning and innovation. Certainly technology plays a role in that. But it's not about the technology, it's about the things that it can provide for us. One

Bill Stites 33:57
of the things we've been talking a lot about with regards to all this has been artificial intelligence, AI and while it's been here in pieces, it's really picking up and we're dealing with it in ways we would have only thought of in science fiction movies, you know, a few years ago when when you look back, but how were you seeing AI play out now in the work that you're doing there and in the future of technology as a whole.

Mike Cobb 34:21
I am very excited about AI. Again, here I am always living on the edge. But I have been around long enough to to remember when Google and Wikipedia first started how we all throw our hands in the air and thought the craft of teaching must be over now. And I know it's not and that what I believe AI can do if we use it properly. That's always the technology is only as good as what we as humans do with it. If we use AI appropriately and effectively, we can make learning deeper, we can make learning more impactful and we can make learning more efficient. If we misuse it just like anything else in our schools then it will not be as good. And so I am excited about what AI is doing. We're using it, as I mentioned in several ways, one to help students just with their daily workflow. They're going to be using AI in the future. So we allow them to use AI in the classroom, we teach them how to do it responsibly. But there are many tasks that AI can and should do for our students, that isn't part of our pedagogical process for them. So yeah, if it can do that for you, there are certain things that we have the agreement with them, that covenant is that now this is part of what you are doing here, though, so don't use it for that, please. But also for our teachers, it is saving our teachers so much time in so many areas. And when we look at grading the feedback loop, and even giving information back to parents, if we can save time, that gives us more time for the relational things that do have such an importance and the outcomes for students.

Bill Stites 35:48
And like one of the things I love about what you said is your answer is not unlike what we've heard, when any new technology has come out. And I think in asking that question, it's almost like leaving, I want to know what I want to know that you're in agreement with what we've been hearing, because so much of the conversation around AI seems like it's like how do we address this new thing, it's unlike anything else. It's not really unlike any other type of transformative technology that we've had to deal with that we didn't have before. And it's just great to get that perspective from you, and hear where how you're tackling it with the work that you're doing there. Because again, you're in a position now where you've got almost like unlimited freedom in terms of shaping the way in which you are building this program and what you're doing there. So one of the questions that I have is, you mentioned earlier that whenever you talk about the future of technology, you get caught in the present while you're you're looking very much to the future, yes. And with everything that you've had in your past, everything that is going on. Now, if I were to take the trip, you know, and I'm not inviting myself, but if you wanted to bring me over, I'd be happy to go, I'd love it. I was making the trip. And I was going to walk in to one of the schools either that you've already had opened or that you're opening, what would I see? What would it be like? What would I experience in that since you've got this kind of open opportunity to develop things the way in which you want?

Mike Cobb 37:13
Well, first of all, we have developed really the idea about what our learning should look like around some core principles. And so the very first core principle, though, is personalized learning that I know that doesn't sound new and innovative. But here's the thing that we have missed for so long with much of our technologies, we've just been trying to make the horses run faster and not build cars. And with personalized learning that we can actually do these Personalized Pathways where kids can have authentic experiences and go down very unique avenues. And so we're really trying to use not only again, our technology, but also our pedagogical approach to allow more opportunity for that not only through how we use technology by maybe it is that they can do ar or VR classes and things like that. But also we're allowing students time in their day. So we have really revolutionize the way our schedule looks so that students have discovery blocks within their week. So they can actually take deep dives, this is something that we started all saints. But we've gone a lot farther in my current role now to make sure that we allow time, space and support for true personalized learning to happen. And I do believe this is what the future of education looks like when you think about the access because AI as an example, AI has been around for decades, AI is not new. And for people who think it's new, they just haven't been paying attention. Here's what's new, is that now we all have access to it. It used to be the only major corporations and those who had lots of funds behind them had access to this type of generative AI we now have as individuals. So as we look down the future of learning, we have to know that access is going to increase not just with AI, but the next thing and the next thing. And so we want to build our schools in a way that are flexible enough to allow students to still get the things that we need them to know to learn and the skills, but also to have their own journey. We've said it for decades that we're preparing kids for jobs we don't know about yet. This is even more so right now that I mean, I'm here in Neom, where I'm looking at people who are running entire sectors that were things I didn't even know about till I came here. I mean, like, this is the future for us. So we need to be careful about thinking there's certain things that we have to have in and instead allow more time for personalizations. We also talk about embedded as one of our core principles that we want the competencies, the skills, the technology, and all that to be embedded in the learning. So it isn't just one offs that it's all together, allowing them to have the tools and the resources needed to take those Personalized Pathways. So

Christina Lewellen 39:47
as the kids would say, Mike, I'm loving this journey for you. I'm loving that you're taking us on this journey. But what is next for you. You've kind of walked this long path where you started in the Classroom, you're now doing something that most people can't even really fully imagine, even though you've just described it to all of us. So what's next for you?

Mike Cobb 40:09
Well, that's a great question. I have always tried to live my life just looking for opportunities and open doors, I hope that anyone who knows me would say that that's true of me that I'm willing to have any conversation to have any deep thought with anyone, because those tangent opportunities where I've found some of the coolest things in my personal life, and in my career, many times when I was at all saints, there will be people out in the community that will just want to learn more, before I knew it, they had some opportunity that I didn't even think about at the beginning, if I had not left that door open, it would have happened. And certainly here in neoman, happens all the time with all of our sectors, we have the top minds in the world, and they're coming over there helping our students. And so I just like to have an open door. So my hope is that there'll be a lot of neat things coming in the future, I am coming to the probably the end of my career, in some ways, I've been doing this for 34 years. So you know, I don't know how much longer I have to actually have the energy to be ahead of school and to do all those things. But we'll see. I certainly love what I do. And I'm not walking out the door quite yet.

Christina Lewellen 41:14
It sounds like there's a few more sandboxes that you want to dig up. I mean, that's the vibe I'm getting.

Unknown Speaker 41:20
Absolutely.

Christina Lewellen 41:22
So as we kind of start getting toward the end of our time together, I also know a little something about you. And that is that you have a hobby that if it isn't expensive in terms of your checkbook, it certainly is expensive in terms of the space that it takes up. Tell the ATLIS world what your little passion project is, that especially takes up a lot of room in your garage. My

Mike Cobb 41:51
wife will not like us talking about this. But no, I'm just kidding. I am a car enthusiast and I have always loved cars. And over the years I have taken it on to if there's a car that needs to be renovated or loved. I don't want to buy a car that's already been done or car that's finished. Kind of how I am in life. I like to see potential and things and so I buy cars, and I try to do something new with it. I do renovate some of them. But I also turn like a I have a 79 Corvette that I turned into the one bomber look that I put rivets on that are 3d printed and painted like air force plane. So a little bit of everything I currently own 25 cars that are still back in the States waiting on me right now. And I do get to look at them every night on my little screen. I have a security camera and I put them to bed every night. So I do miss that very much.

Bill Stites 42:43
Well, Mike, if you have a Toyota FJ 40 cruiser that you either want to renovate or you have or you want to get rid of I will take

Mike Cobb 42:52
okay, we need to talk. Yes we do. At one point I actually did one of those I don't have it currently, but I'm always looking for our next project.

Bill Stites 42:59
I had one in college and I got it too young and ended up getting rid of it and I cursed myself every day for doing it. That's

Mike Cobb 43:06
a bad rabbit hole to go down all the cars I wish I still had for sure.

Christina Lewellen 43:12
I think everybody has like an emotional reaction to a car. Yeah. Hmm. My dad owned for a long time he owned a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang. Oh, yes. And even though I am highly proficient in driving a stick shift he never did let me anywhere near that clutch as he would put it. I love it. Well, you tuck your cars in every night. Yeah, the technology. Is there a dream car? So Bill mentioned his I mentioned the one that my dad won't let me breathe on. What's your dream car that you're really hoping to get your hands on? Or do you already have it? Yeah,

Mike Cobb 43:48
I was gonna say I probably have my dream car because I have such an eclectic collection. When people come to see my shop. They're kind of puzzled, like, why? Because each one of my cars have a story or have some sentimental value to me. But the car that is my dream car that I do own is a 1970 c 10 truck that my daughter and I totally renovated from a barn find when she was about 12 years old. And we worked for four years did everything enlist together. And that was my dream. And that really is where my passion for renovating cars came from. I always loved cars. But I so enjoyed being with my daughter watching this thing go from one state to the other and seeing her pride in this car. People ask me all the time, what's the one car you'll never sell? That's the one that I will never ever sell. So I love my 1970 C 10 truck. That's awesome.

Christina Lewellen 44:38
That's a really great answer. Mike, this has been such a pleasure. And I'm so grateful that you made the time even with the time difference to join us for the podcast to share a little bit about how you're thinking. I think that you have such an open mind to what is possible. So I know I feel inspired, and I'm sure our listeners will too. Thank you so much. I want you to feel like you have an open invitation to come back and join us anytime, when you're doing cool stuff. We want to hear about it first, is that a deal?

Mike Cobb 45:07
That's a deal. I would love it. I love staying in tune with what you're doing. And thank you for letting me be part of this network. I have loved that list from the very beginning. It was interesting. You know, Jason, I worked hand in hand, we really, I wasn't really necessarily the head of school. And he wasn't the assistant head of school. It depends on the day and the task, who was in charge, right. But Jason always told me that, Mike, you have to be involved with ATLIS, you have to go to the ATLIS conference and events, and I was always there. And I remember the early days, I was sometimes the very only head of school there. And I love now that we've seen the heads of schools have realized that no, they have to be engaged with this conversation, and be involved with ATLIS. And so I'm super proud to be on the podcast and to be part of this network.

Christina Lewellen 45:47
Okay, so now we were going to end this, but now you open up a new door, and you haven't been with me long enough to know, there's always another question. So let's go with that as our final question, which is, let's say there's a head of school, who just doesn't feel comfortable with technology. Can you give him her them? A little pep talk about why they have to get comfortable with technology? Yeah, well,

Mike Cobb 46:11
what I'd really say to that is you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, because that's the world we live in. So if you don't understand quite all the things that are available, or the options out there, then going to a place like ATLIS or being involved with a network like ATLIS is the way to do that. I mean, I've learned so many things by again, get to know ATLIS members and going to ATLIS workshops and conferences. That's where I became more comfortable with being uncomfortable. I still am uncomfortable all the time, every day at naomh. There's something that somebody brings up and I'm like, I have no idea how that will work or if that's even possible. But I'm comfortable with the idea that we don't know yet. But we can still move forward. Mike

Christina Lewellen 46:52
Cobb, you are chef kiss. That's awesome. Thank you so much for your time, friend. I really appreciate it. Thank you both.

Bill Stites 47:02
Thanks, Mike. This

Mike Cobb 47:03
has been great. Thanks, Bill. Appreciate it. Y'all have a great one. Thank you so much.

Narrator 47:09
This has been talking technology with ATLIS produced by the Association of technology leaders and independent schools. For more information about ATLIS and ATLIS membership, please visit the ATLIS.org If you enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues in the independent school community. Thank you for listening.